Thursday, April 6, 2017
"12AM" and Mullen
Last week, we ended our discussion of one of Mullen's poem's in regard to supermarkets and packaging.
How might that apply to "12 Angry Men" and the court/trial/jury room process in general?
- Is the defendant in the play "packaged"? How so and what implications/effect does this have?
- Are players in a trial generally packaged -- both on the defendant and prosecution side? Should they be?
- How does Mullen's poem "Elliptical" correlate to the readings from this unit ("Just Walk on By" Prologue from Invisible Man, "12 Angry Men," information from the handout on logical fallacies, deductive reasoning, and **Rogerian argument)?
Respond to TWO of these questions above in a comment, then reply to another student who commented on the question you did NOT, extending what she said, and offering additional perspective.
This is due by class time tomorrow.
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- Is the defendant in the play "packaged"? How so and what implications/effect does this have?
ReplyDeleteYes, very much so. The defendant in 12AM has been packaged as a troubled kid with an upsetting childhood who's grown up in the bad part of town. Because of this some of the jury are predispositioned to think that he committed the crime because he grew up a so-called, 'bad neighborhood.' At the same time, this is used to present why he didn't do it, by stating that violence is normal to him, and that one punch wouldn't cause him any more anger than what is normal. This colours all the jurors perceptions and cause them to create assumptions simply based on the fact that he grew up in a certain place and a certain way.
- Are players in a trial generally packaged -- both on the defendant and prosecution side? Should they be?
I feel like they very much are so. the best way to show how they'd be packaged is in the movie Chicago. There's an entire song how the defense creates a whole story and reason for why she committed the murder, as well as a personality for her to create sympathy for her. In trials I think lawyers often use assumptions to paint a certain picture of the defendant, bringing in witnesses to support these claims and therefore sway people to their side.
Clara—I agree with your points in your first answer that the jury is able to conclude that he may be guilty or not guilty based on his packaging. In this way, the defendants packaging could have served as a benefit or detriment to his case.
DeleteIs the defendant in the play packaged?..
ReplyDeleteI think the defendant in the play is packaged by his domestic situation and living in the slums. Many jurors try to use this as an excuse to prove him guilty and portray him in a negative way. The jurors are quick to bring up his violent past and familial issues, rather than the evidence provided in court. Many of the men try to use the boy's personal problems against proven facts and accounts. This "package" obstructs the juror's view of the boy as a whole being and cause disillusion among the jury, causing them to forget he is still a young boy. The package labels the boy as a criminal before anything else and limits jurors' perspectives, causing them to ignore any other possible discrepancies within the jury.
-How does Mullen's poem correlate to readings in this unit?
Mullen's poem, "Elliptical", correlates to "Just Walk on By", which is seen in the sentence, "If only they would make an effort". In the short story by Staples, the narrator alters/modifies himself when in the public sphere to avoid scaring people and appearing as a lethal threat. In 12 Angry Men, several jurors, including 7 and 10 make hasty generalizations about people who live in the slums, saying that they act different and don't know anything. Like in "Elliptical", the jurors use many ad hominems and generalizations when talking about the marginalized. in the poem, the narrator(s) offer several concessions, symbolizing some level of understanding or agreement with the opposing party. This can relate to the Rogerian argument, which consists of reducing tension by showing understanding. This lessens the chance of offended parties and the likelihood of players defending themselves rather than their argument. Overall, thejudgement and assumptions in this poem, closely relate and correspond with many of this unit's readings.
For your opinion on Mullen's poem and the connections to other works that we've read this unit, I do agree on the connections between the whole 'if only they would make an effort' and many of your other points. However, I feel like we don't see many hasty generalisations in 'Elliptical' and not many rogerian arguments are made by any of the 12 jurors in 12AM.
DeleteIs the defendant in the play packaged?..
ReplyDeleteI think the defendant in the play is packaged by his domestic situation and living in the slums. Many jurors try to use this as an excuse to prove him guilty and portray him in a negative way. The jurors are quick to bring up his violent past and familial issues, rather than the evidence provided in court. Many of the men try to use the boy's personal problems against proven facts and accounts. This "package" obstructs the juror's view of the boy as a whole being and cause disillusion among the jury, causing them to forget he is still a young boy. The package labels the boy as a criminal before anything else and limits jurors' perspectives, causing them to ignore any other possible discrepancies within the jury.
-How does Mullen's poem correlate to readings in this unit?
Mullen's poem, "Elliptical", correlates to "Just Walk on By", which is seen in the sentence, "If only they would make an effort". In the short story by Staples, the narrator alters/modifies himself when in the public sphere to avoid scaring people and appearing as a lethal threat. In 12 Angry Men, several jurors, including 7 and 10 make hasty generalizations about people who live in the slums, saying that they act different and don't know anything. Like in "Elliptical", the jurors use many ad hominems and generalizations when talking about the marginalized. in the poem, the narrator(s) offer several concessions, symbolizing some level of understanding or agreement with the opposing party. This can relate to the Rogerian argument, which consists of reducing tension by showing understanding. This lessens the chance of offended parties and the likelihood of players defending themselves rather than their argument. Overall, thejudgement and assumptions in this poem, closely relate and correspond with many of this unit's readings.
Yes, I agree with what you said about how "Eloiptical" correlates to "Just Walk on By". Elliptical forces the reader to finish the the sentences wihth stereotypes and societal assumptions, similar to how the people surrounding the narrator in "Just Walk on By" use stereotypes to avoid him, while he has to do things to ease their discomfort.
Delete- Is the defendant in the play "packaged"? How so and what implications/effect does this have?
ReplyDeleteYes, the defendant in the play is packaged. "Packaged" is used to describe how people judge something from what's it's wrapped in, or details about something that can be used to convince one of something. The defendant in 12 Angry Men comes from the slums, so the jurors hastily generalize that he would commit a crime. Ad hominem also comes into play here, as the jurors take details from the defendant's lifestyle that fall into socioeconomic stereotypes. Because the defendant is so "packaged", he doesn't get an unbiased jury. At the start of their discussion, the jury should be impartial. But after listening to the prosecution's case, most of the jurors have already decided he is guilty.
- Are players in a trial generally packaged -- both on the defendant and prosecution side? Should they be?
Yes, players in a trial are generally packaged on both sides. Each side needs to make a compelling case for their cause, so they use evidence to portray the defendant and prosecution in a light that will have a positive impact on their cause. Lawyers also use persuasive techniques such as logos, ethos, and pathos. They appeal to the juror's emotions, relating the case to examples that the jurors can relate to. They also use logos and ethos to make the jurors think about evidence and accusations.
Although each side is "packaged" in order to sway the juror to one side or the other, without it, there is no way to justly convict one of a crime. Therefore, packaging is required.
I agree with you Jess that packaged is a description of judgement. Though, I never thought packaging is required on a trial because it can lead to false assumptions, but I now understand that that's how each side conveys their side on a trial.
Delete1) The defendant is "packaged" because he is generalized. His "packaged" appearance is a slum boy with a past of misbehavior, which presents his package as a boy who is doomed to be a murderer from his background. The defendant's "package" has the effect that his identity based on bias causes 11 of the 12 jurors he is guilty for murder.
ReplyDelete2) Players are generally packaged in a trial. The prosecutors can "package" the defendant based on bias and construct his external identity. I don't think they should be packaged because it can possibly lead to false accusations. Packing is assumptions based on what appears to be true, which could actually be false. Packaging the players in a trial can lead to false consequences.
I definitely agree with you, Bellamy, and I feel that the prosecutors' judgement is biased and completely based on the defendant's external appearances and environment. I also believe that packing is not beneficial to either side because it leads to wrong judgement.
DeleteThe defendant in 12 Angry Men is packaged. He is packaged as a criminal and inherently bad because of where he is from and his cultural background, which serves as an external identity construction. The effect of the defendant's packaging is that he is seen unfairly and through a veil of prejudice when the jurors are examining his case.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. I also think it's interesting that many details of his race and identity are intentionally left out. Therefore, everything we learn about the suspect is through the biased opinion of the jury, furthering the external identity construction you mentioned.
DeletePeople in a trial are generally packaged. An example of this is how one of the jurors originally voted guilty only because he thought that the prosecuting lawyer was smart and made good points, and he did not look into the case any further behind the package of the smart lawyer. Packaging can lead to false assumptions and generalizations, and in this case, a faulty syllogism by that juror. Just because the lawyer was smart and made good points does not make him right or more right than the defense.
ReplyDelete- How does Mullen's poem "Elliptical" correlate to the readings from this unit ("Just Walk on By" Prologue from Invisible Man, "12 Angry Men," information from the handout on logical fallacies, deductive reasoning, and **Rogerian argument)?
ReplyDeleteThe poem "Elliptical" is composed of statements that are commonly used to place blame on a certain racial group. In this context, African Americans. The statements are all generalizations and stereotypes. SImilarly, these are the same generalizations placed on the protagonist from "Just walk on by". These statements are what he feels others believe about him. How he's a criminal or dangerous, etc. For 12 Angry men, they spend a lot of time speaking of the suspect's personal life (Ad Hominem) and say things along the lines of "if he grew up in the neighborhood he's bound to become violent" which is similar to what eliptical states.
Additionally, an eliptical is a workout machine in which you work and work and never get anywhere. In "Just walk on by" the protagonist works and works to disassociate from the stereotypes, but never achieves it.
The defendant is packaged as a boy, who because of his difficult ubringing, is very troubled and likely to be violent. This package was made directly from assumptions and stereotypes created by the jury. The defendant therefore is being robbed of his natural rights to a fair trial. It is the jury's job to be unbiased and by packaging the defendant, they are not being impartial.
ReplyDeleteMullens poems relate to 12 Angry men because both are about the assumptions people make about others. In Elliptical, we hear hasty generalizations, and stereotypes being said about a particular group. In Walk on By, the speaker has to change himself to not match what stereotypes the people see him as. All pieces of literature have to do with the packaging of others, and how preconceptions are both offensive and harmful.
I really like how you implied how these assumptions and stereotypes are placed upon him die to his upbringing which also was used as logical fallacies in his case instead of looking at the hard facts. This story can be looked as an elliptical because these stereotypes and generalizations put the jurors in a whirlwind of what could be true vs. the opinions already made.
Delete- Is the defendant in the play "packaged"? How so and what implications/effect does this have?
ReplyDeleteYes. He is packaged with stereotypes. By the jury having predetermined opinions on him, soley based on his culture and background as a whole, not him individually. This causes them to judge him and inaccurately assume things about him. They rely on stereotypes and generalizations to determine whether or not he did the crime.
This Poem of elliptical shows perfect correspondence in 12 angry men because these men argue over a case and get no where until one voice steps in, changing the mindset of others. This then follows into the second question in proving how the defendant was packaged and made to look flawed. He came from a low income dad, a poor neighborhood, surrounded by violence, all around making him look like a damaged and unwanted package. This puts the rich white men on an elliptical of blame and this unreality.
ReplyDelete-Is the defendant in the play "packaged"? How so and what implications/ effect does this have?
ReplyDeleteThe defendant is packaged because he is already perceived negatively by the prosecutors with biases based on his external appearance and his external environment. The effect it has on the prosecutors is that it makes them bias toward their decisions on the defendant's verdict.
-How does Mullen's poem "elliptical" correlate to the readings from this unit?
Mullen's poem "Elliptical," correlates to the readings Just Walk on By and the prologue from Invisible Man. The poem, Elliptical are fragments and generalizations and assumptions with no substantial evidence. Similarly, in Just Walk on By, the speaker disregards the obvious rejection the people around him emit. The assumptions that the people around him have about him are the illogical conclusions they've reached, just like the illogical phrases in the Elliptical.
Also, in the prologue from Invisible Man, the protagonist believes that, just like the speaker making assumptions in Elliptical, the people in the invisible man's environment who think he's invisible have an incomplete view of the world and should be left alone. The Rogerian argument is also shown throughout Elliptical and 12 Angry Men because rather than having a correct verdict and response to a problem, the characters and speakers would rather have common ground and come to a unified, not thought out, and an overall, bad conclusion.
The defendant in 12 Angry Men is packaged because he is only seen in the jury by where he came from and his past. They only see him as a troubled, violent person who has no morals or boundaries because of where he grew up. This is detrimental to him and his case because it is hard for him to try to convince the jurors otherwise to prove his innocence.
ReplyDeleteMullen's poem "Elliptical" correlates to "Just Walk on By" and 12 Angry Men because because they all bring up the issue of stereotypes and biases towards people of a certain class or race. These readings all show how minorities don't really have a fair chance most of the time in society because they are judged, tried, and prosecuted in almost all walks of life before they ever have the chance to defend themselves.
Although the speaker creates a signicant implication about the issues that are being addressed in "Elliptical," I do agree with Peyton that it could be interpreted as a bias towards people of a certain class. This text does correlate with "Just Walk on By" and 12 Angry Men because biases, assumptions, and stereotypes are made, which results in these people automatically having a tainted external identity construction.
DeleteI agree with Peyton, Mullen's poem highlights how underlying biases contribute to the socio-economic inequality between certain races and ethnicities. Like Peyton said, the readings all demonstrate that bias and prejudice are at the root of the problem in society, and in the case of 12AM, the judicial system.
Delete- Is the defendant in the play "packaged"? How so and what implications/effect does this have?
ReplyDeleteYes, the defendant in the play is "packaged." The defendent is characterized by some of the jurors as a bad person because he came from a poorer area. Some of the jurors who vote "guilty" at the beginning are quick to judge his character just because of where he came from. This negatively colors their judgements about him.
- Are players in a trial generally packaged -- both on the defendant and prosecution side? Should they be?
Yes. Players in a trial have to prepare all of the material for their argument and be ready for potential counter arguments. They must put have all of their evidence prepared to present their client in the best way possible. They need to be packaged because if a lawyer entered a trial unprepared, they wouldn't have evidence to support their case.
- Is the defendant in the play "packaged"? How so and what implications/effect does this have? The defendant in packaged as a bad influence since childhood, growing up from a bad neighborhood. Because he is packaged with this background of being supposedly bad because he grew up in more dangerous neighborhood givers the jury a preconception of what he is like without even analyzing the situation. Therefore they think automatically that he is the one who committed the crime.
ReplyDeletePlayers in a trial are generally packaged to favor the jurors of there side whether it be on the side of the prosecutor or the defendant. They need packaging to allow them to persuade the jury to vote on their behalf so both side need packaging although the packaging of a group might lead to their disadvantage.
- Is the defendant in the play "packaged"? How so and what implications/effect does this have?
ReplyDeleteA: Yes the defendant is packaged as the boy from the wrong side of the tracks and severally abused by his father, only to snap one day and kill him. The defense portrays the boy as a person to be sympathetic towards, although the jury doesn't really buy it because of their biases.
- Are players in a trial generally packaged -- both on the defendant and prosecution side? Should they be?
A: they are all packaged to get the most sympathy from the jury and to get their conviction
Is the defendant in the play "packaged"? How so and what implications/effect does this have?
ReplyDeleteThe defendant in the play is "packaged" as a misbehaved and trouble making delinquent automatically, not just because of the crime he is accused of committing, but also even more because of where he is from, the poorer and more troubling side of town. This affects the defendant during his trial because when the jurors go back to discuss the case and vote "guilty" or "not guilty," his presentation or "packaging" plays a significant role in how the verdict is decided. Some people, because of his packaging, already have biased opinions because they strongly believe that because the neighborhood is bad, the product of someone coming out of it or who still lives in it, will also be bad or juvenile.
Are players in a trial generally packaged -- both on the defendant and prosecution side? Should they be?
The participants, such as the lawyers and the defendant in a trial are usually "packaged," by either how he or she looks, the way he or she talks and the language that he or she uses, and how educated he or she might appear. There were some jurors who did notice some of these "packagings," such as the prosecutor, as he appeared to be very educated because of the way he talk and introduced the evidence and referred to certain instances. This, therefore, caused these jurors to become even more in favor of the prosecutor and his or her argument, which makes them side against the defendant because of a developed bias.
- Is the defendant in the play "packaged"? How so and what implications/effect does this have?
ReplyDeleteYes the defendant is being packaged. He's specifically being packaged from a genetic standpoint. The defendant comes from the bad part of town and has a bad history, and because of this he is being looked at from a biased standpoint.
- Are players in a trial generally packaged -- both on the defendant and prosecution side? Should they be?
All the players in the trial are packaged, whether it be by them or someone else. For the story to have ended the way it did the defendant and prosecutors had to be packaged to get the most effective argument across and legitimate their claims
Is the defendant in the play packaged? How so and what implications/effects does this have?
ReplyDeleteYes the defendant is packaged as someone from the slums. His "packagiing' is an inherent propensity to committing crime just because of where he grew up. THis automatically puts him at a disadvantage because it makes the jurors either biased against him or more sympathetic pic towards him.
Are Players in a trial generally packaged both on the defending and prosecuting sides. Should they be?
All members are packaged in the trial. For example, the prosecuting attorney is packaged as intelligent because of his language, presentation, and effort. They, especially the lawyers, should not be packaged because the case is not about the skill of the lawyers, but the innocence or guilt of the defendant.